Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

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localhorst
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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#51 Post by localhorst » 27 Feb 2024, 12:38

chromo23 wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 12:26 No need for a manual in creating graphics (i grew up with photoshop). At least not for me. I am more interested in the process how to get everything in rules aligned.
But no rush... finish you project first..
I'll write it down anyways - maybe it is from interest for other people to create their own graphical dashboard. And it's all with free tools.
chromo23 wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 12:26What program do you use for creating the 3d models?
From work side I'm a Catia V5 user for more than 20 years. But private I have to use FreeCAD - and those models are created in it. It's great basically, but gave me some headaches on the way to the finished design. Very sensitive if you want to change something early in the component / feature tree. And the models are starting to get "heavy" pretty soon - if you use bigger patterns, etc. But I get used to it and am still surprised how powerful it is for a free, open source solution.
Bildschirmfoto 2024-02-27 um 12.35.40.png
Bildschirmfoto 2024-02-27 um 12.35.40.png (1.24 MiB) Viewed 598 times
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#52 Post by TD-er » 27 Feb 2024, 13:20

You can buy pinheaders with 2 mm spacing.
But wiring them to loose wires is a very good receipt for hard to find issues due to loose solderings.

I think it is by far the easiest way to design a PCB for it with the footprint of the sensors you need and then order them via JLCPCB or one of the other PCB manufacturers.
They can also mount some components if you need them. For example those headers needed for the Plantower PMSx003 are very useful to have soldered to the PCB.
If you need those, I can look for the exact part nr you need and some example schematic.

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#53 Post by localhorst » 27 Feb 2024, 22:58

TD-er wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 13:20 You can buy pinheaders with 2 mm spacing.
But wiring them to loose wires is a very good receipt for hard to find issues due to loose solderings.
Sounds like well experienced to me. :lol:
But at least for the testing phase, I guess I have to go this way, thank you!
TD-er wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 13:20I think it is by far the easiest way to design a PCB for it with the footprint of the sensors you need
PCB sounds like a sexy solution. :)
But how do I have to imagine it for this specific setup? The PCB would sit on the ESP, correct? But the sensors - SEN55 and S8 - need to sit on the wall of the housing, in different positions. And well apart. Would there be some standard connectors for the cables on the PCB?
localhorst wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 10:56 I'd like to see the SEN5X running (especially hear it running with its fan) - if something needs to be changed because it's resonating with the housing. Maybe I'll already connect power to the SEN55 and hope that the fan will already run.
No success, the fan doesn't start, when only power is given to the sensor.
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#54 Post by localhorst » 28 Feb 2024, 14:14

chromo23 wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 10:45 Could you provide me with an project description. Maybe even as an extra topic. I think this could be also interesting for other people.
I am especially interested in how you did the graphics with espeasy. :)
Here we go: WT32-SC01 ESPEasy Dashboard 320x480px
TD-er wrote: 27 Feb 2024, 12:13 I'll be interested in the 3D designs too (I do have 3 3D printers here, so no need to ship any prints to me)
And here are the 3D models: WT32-SC01 + SEN5X + SenseAir S8 Housing
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#55 Post by MikaelaLinnea » 19 Mar 2024, 15:02

Using a PCB (printed circuit board) does indeed sound like a sleek solution for your setup! Typically, the PCB would be integrated with the ESP, providing a compact and organized platform for your electronics. As for the sensors (SEN55 and S8) positioned on the wall of the housing, you can incorporate standard connectors on the PCB to easily connect the cables, allowing flexibility in placing the sensors in different positions. This modular approach facilitates installation and maintenance while ensuring efficient functionality.

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#56 Post by bidrohini » 29 Mar 2024, 13:58

MikaelaLinnea wrote: 19 Mar 2024, 15:02 Using a PCB (printed circuit board) does indeed sound like a sleek solution for your setup! Typically, the PCB would be integrated with the ESP, providing a compact and organized platform for your electronics. As for the sensors (SEN55 and S8) positioned on the wall of the housing, you can incorporate standard connectors on the PCB to easily connect the cables, allowing flexibility in placing the sensors in different positions. This modular approach facilitates installation and maintenance while ensuring efficient functionality.
Agreed. A PCB will make the project neat and more convenient. I think a typical single-layer 1.6-millimetre thick PCB will be good enough. It will provide a good balance between durability, flexibility, and cost-effectiveness. Source: https://www.nextpcb.com/blog/what-is-st ... -thickness

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#57 Post by localhorst » 29 Mar 2024, 14:58

Well, currently I guess it's more the question if this project can be considered as dead, before thinking about a PCB.
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#58 Post by Ath » 20 Apr 2024, 23:21

@localhorst (and others) I've created PR #5038 that a) cleans up the code somewhat, and b) add support for stand-alone use with a Sensirion SEN5x sensor (currently support for SEN54 and SEN55).

A build is running in this Actions run

I've included the plugin in the Climate and MAX builds.
Report any findings here or in the PR.
/Ton (PayPal.me)

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#59 Post by localhorst » 21 Apr 2024, 19:41

First quick feedback before further testing:
Flashed back the second device from another system to this build - config.dat is doing a great job.
Implemented and connected the SEN55 - looks like it's working straight away:
Bildschirmfoto 2024-04-21 um 19.37.03.png
Bildschirmfoto 2024-04-21 um 19.37.03.png (342.5 KiB) Viewed 127 times
Temperature seems to be off by around +1.5°
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#60 Post by Ath » 21 Apr 2024, 20:21

The temperature offset seems consistent for this sensor, as I see a similar delta. The intended use of the sensor is for temperature compensation of the measurements, not to supply the ambient temperature value :? when configured for Ikea Vindstyrka, an additional compensation is applied in the code, for the extra heat the ESP adds inside the housing...
Ii didn't add a setting for that, as you can use a formula to subtract the offset, but if you think it's really useful, I can add such setting?

-------------------------------------------

You have configured 2 tasks with different output values, that was required by the old plugin implementation, but I changed the original implementation to now be independent tasks, so not sure if that's a good idea, 2 tasks trying to control the same device...
The advantage of allowing multiple, independent tasks, is that you can have multiple independent sensors on a single ESP, when using an I2C multiplexer (because it has a fixed I2C address). That multiplexer is supported in nearly all ESPEasy builds (See the Hardware tab).

My addition of Get Config Values implementation, allows to fetch all values from a single task instance, and the intended solution to make them visible on the Device page is to use a Dummy Device, that gets it's values set using a rule that responds to an event of this task, like this:

Code: Select all

// Change #Temperature to #All if "Single event with all values" is enabled
On SEN55#Temperature Do // This assumes a Dummy Device named SEN555, with Quad Values: PM1p0, PM2p5, PM4p0 and PM10p0
  TaskValueSet,SEN555,PM1p0,[SEN55#PM1p0]
  TaskValueSet,SEN555,PM2p5,[SEN55#PM2p5]
  TaskValueSet,SEN555,PM4p0,[SEN55#PM4p0]
  TaskValueSet,SEN555,PM10p0,[SEN55#PM10p0]
Endon
The results will be exactly the same, as during measurement all values are retrieved from the sensor (Ikea-mode receives them every second, as that's the update frequency of the Vindstyrka), so are always all available at the same time.

NB: After starting the plugin the first couple of measurements may show some unexpected/0 results, as the sensor seems to do some averaging before returning some values, like tVoc and NOx.
/Ton (PayPal.me)

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#61 Post by localhorst » 22 Apr 2024, 12:14

Hi Ton,

I've changed it to a dummy device for the PM values, just like you advised, thank you! And the second unit is set, up and running with the SEN55 too.
The "B" unit is currently on the balcony (and the S8 needs to calibrate itself - again):
Bildschirmfoto 2024-04-22 um 12.00.05.png
Bildschirmfoto 2024-04-22 um 12.00.05.png (313.31 KiB) Viewed 103 times
The incoming values of both units are looking constant to each other, so this is already good (without judging the values themselves, as no experience yet).
Only thing making me currently suspicious: the NOx value is jumping over 3000 at startup, ok, but after "calming down" it never changes and stays all the time at 1 - on both devices. Would be great if our air is that clean, but maybe there could be a malfunction. I'll monitor this.
Ath wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 20:21 Ii didn't add a setting for that, as you can use a formula to subtract the offset, but if you think it's really useful, I can add such setting?
Might be good, if someone (like me) is aiming to use just this "all-in" sensor and wants to use the temperature as ambient temperature.
Ath wrote: 21 Apr 2024, 20:21 NB: After starting the plugin the first couple of measurements may show some unexpected/0 results, as the sensor seems to do some averaging before returning some values, like tVoc and NOx.
Yes, I can confirm this. And like written before, the first returned values might be very high / unrealistic. But this calms down after a short while.

Basically regarding the need of the dummy device in order to get all values:
Maybe giving a hint to do so already in the plugin, close to the preset values? Maybe (later) with a link to the documentation?
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#62 Post by TD-er » 22 Apr 2024, 12:35

About the SenseAir S8...
I'm really surprised to see it is actually outputting such values.

I know the S8 is a bit sensitive to overvoltage, so is it possible you had yours exposed to voltages > 5.2V?
Like from one of those cheap USB chargers?
This might have damaged the lamp inside.

Also can you take a look at the reading stats of the SenseAir task?
Like how often it has seen a checksum error.

I know the S8 may take a while to perform a reading (upto 200 msec) as I still need to change that to split the modbus reading into a call command and then later process the returned data.
Right now it still waits for a reply, which on the S8 does take about 200 msec.

Maybe this wait can affect other tasks if those do access their sensors like it should be done -non blocking-.
So can you also try with the SenseAir task disabled to see if the other sensors do return more plausible readings?

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#63 Post by localhorst » 22 Apr 2024, 12:47

TD-er wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 12:35 About the SenseAir S8...
I'm really surprised to see it is actually outputting such values.
I'm not surprised at all - as this perfectly matches my experience with the S8 over two years with 4 units running on S8. This is why I changed to SCD30 dual channel sensors.
It's the autocalibration running away after a couple of weeks. Like I said, I've seen this over and over again. After calibrating on the balcony (just like now), it's fine for a while. But then he starts to calibrate against higher values in our apartment, assuming it's 400ppm and the cycle starts again.
I've also seen it with this device before - calibrated, going parallel to my SCD30 devices, but after a while it's starting to show too low values - as the autocalibration kicked in.
This is what I meant - the autocalibration is not suitable in environments in which you cannot guarantee that the CO2 drops to 400ppm frequently.
The SCD30 are running perfect in comparison.

So - no, I don't think it's damaged.

*edit*
Checksum (pass/fail/nodata): 171/0/0
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#64 Post by TD-er » 22 Apr 2024, 12:52

Makes sense.

What kind environment are you using them that keeps on having such a high base level of CO2?

I guess I could add the commands to disable or change ABC on the S8 again, as there probably aren't any S8's being sold out there which do have this firmware bug which renders the sensor unusable when changing the ABC period.

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#65 Post by localhorst » 22 Apr 2024, 13:14

TD-er wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 12:52What kind environment are you using them that keeps on having such a high base level of CO2?
I've used them in our apartment for controlling our ventilation system (now replaced with SCD30, who are doing a perfect job and proving the problem with the S8s). After renovating, the new windows are really air-tight.
We don't have a high base level of CO2, the ventilation system really takes good care of this. But when its rare that no-one is at home, it doesn't go down to 400ppm.
2 adult, 2 kids, a lot of home office... so it seems often that it calibrates against somewhat 600ppm. This of course affects the ventilation system, being less "aggressive" as getting lower CO2 values presented. Then the S8s are calibrating at some point again, and so on... we are in the loop.
TD-er wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 12:52 I guess I could add the commands to disable or change ABC on the S8 again, as there probably aren't any S8's being sold out there which do have this firmware bug which renders the sensor unusable when changing the ABC period.
At least my batch of S8s seems not affected. In the past I did forced calibrations on the balcony, which didn't damage the sensors / not changed the behavior.

For this unit "B" with the S8 - this will end up in the office of my wife. And there it will see 400ppm frequently after work and especially during the weekends. So it should be fine for it.
And maybe some higher NOx values (a lot truck traffic in front of the door).
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#66 Post by localhorst » 22 Apr 2024, 13:39

localhorst wrote: 22 Apr 2024, 12:14Only thing making me currently suspicious: the NOx value is jumping over 3000 at startup, ok, but after "calming down" it never changes and stays all the time at 1 - on both devices. Would be great if our air is that clean, but maybe there could be a malfunction. I'll monitor this.
Ah, the "B" unit on the balcony just showed 2 µg/m³ for NOx
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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#67 Post by TD-er » 22 Apr 2024, 13:43

Are you sure your sensors aren't affected?
It does seem like they might have been as the bug is that the actual ABC-duration can only be lowered and not set higher anymore.
Also the S8 doesn't make large steps in adjusting the base level as it only applies some fraction of the encountered offset.
For example if you see a value which requires you to make an offset of "100", it will only apply like "25" (1/4th).
Not 100% sure about the fraction, but you get the idea.

If you have changed the ABC period, then it might be set now at a way shorter interval than what you intended. (and not showing this shorter interval when looking at the set registers)

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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#68 Post by localhorst » 22 Apr 2024, 13:51

Ah, ok, I’ve never changed the ABC period.
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Re: Air Quality unit - which devices are best?

#69 Post by localhorst » 22 Apr 2024, 20:07

After fresh calibration of the S8, it nearly perfectly matches the SCD30 (calibrated 3 months ago?):
IMG_3234.jpeg
IMG_3234.jpeg (2.52 MiB) Viewed 45 times
But from experience, it will start to get away pretty soon.
(German) documentation of making a decentralized ventilation system with heat recovery smart, based on CO2 sensors with ESP Easy: https://luft.breest.eu

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